A real solution to the StarF**k virus for everyone.

[SuspiciousJedi]

Originally Posted by TippeX

blocked by starforce? since when did starforce interfere with audio disks?

Originally Posted by TippeX

since when did starforce protect dvd's (movies that is)

It does not but you can't have another disk except the game disk in the drive while you play, or can you?

Originally Posted by TippeX

simple, you reboot and dont load softice

And that was your answer to this:

Originally Posted by SuspiciousJedi

#3 - I want to use Soft-Ice debugger to debug my own software or the driver I am writting for my company. Now what?

I was not asking how to play a game, I was asking what should I do if I am a developer? How to debug when those drivers that block debuggers are installed? I am wondering are you using your reading abilities at all?

Originally Posted by TippeX

regmon/filemon from sys internals?

Right, those two.

Originally Posted by TippeX

again the network traffic CAN be monitored, theres tons of network analysys programs out there, that can capture packets etc

You do not understand this obviously. Since the Starforce is comprised of not less than 4 kernel drivers they can send packets directly without those ever being seen by firewall or network analysis programs. What is even worse, hardware firewalls included in routers are not designed to prevent outgoing communication so they cannot stop Starforce from sending date without you knowing it either.

Originally Posted by TippeX

theres logic, and then theres paranoia, and then theres jumping to conclusions without first researching the topic you're discussing, which category do you belong in?

Logic is simple -- I do not wish anything that may affect the functionality of my whole computer or it's parts in uncontrollable manner to install without my consent and permission. Moreover, I do not wish to buy anything that doesn't list it's full requirements on the box. There is no valid argument against this. Period.

I am certainly not jumping to conclusion because I have seen how this stealth injection technology works before Starforce has been made. There is a sample source code floating around and even some tools from sysinternals use some of those techniques now used against them.

One example is regmon which monitors registry access by hooking to registry APIs. Starforce not only hooks vital system APIs but it goes even further to hide itself so you don't even see it is doing it.

The method used for patching into the OS kernel can be seen as a security breach because it is not using any Microsoft approved means of interacting and hooking into the system therefore your system may not work as intended after installing it. Having such a thing in your system could void your support with Microsoft -- those drivers aren't even certified by Microsoft meaning they can cause you all sorts of trouble.

Now, could you possibly explain this to me:

What is the point of all hardware manufacturers going through the trouble of obtaining WHQL cetrification from Microsoft to ensure stability and normal functioning of your dearly paid system when a stinking game can install unsigned drivers from the third party without your consent, whose interaction with the OS does not adhere to specifications set by OS manufacturer, and can endanger all your hardware/software/data just by sitting there and intercepting vital system functions let alone doing anything?!?

I suggest you to do some research on the subject instead of trusting or doubting my judgement or sanity. As someone pointed earlier check this, and don't forget to read about all the technologies involved (bottom of the page) because Starforce does include many of them.

[TippeX]

[QUOTE=SuspiciousJedi]It does not but you can't have another disk except the game disk in the drive while you play, or can you?

>> nope, but if the game wants you to have the cd/dvd in the drive then you have little or no choice do you, if you want to play it legally

I was not asking how to play a game, I was asking what should I do if I am a developer? How to debug when those drivers that block debuggers are installed? I am wondering are you using your reading abilities at all?

>> debugging those drivers would infringe the 'no reversing' poilicy in the eula wouldnt it, which would be illegal, however if you were a decent developer then you would know how to hide your debugger from the detections used and then debug it if you wanted to

You do not understand this obviously. Since the Starforce is comprised of not less than 4 kernel drivers they can send packets directly without those ever being seen by firewall or network analysis programs. What is even worse, hardware firewalls included in routers are not designed to prevent outgoing communication so they cannot stop Starforce from sending date without you knowing it either.

i am VERY framiliar with starforce and its drivers, NONE of those drivers have inet functionality and they can NOT send stuff out without accessing the network drivers, which should in turn be linked to the firewall (software), it just cant magically make a packet and send it, it has to interface to the ndis driver layer at the very least

i agree with your view though about the stability of your computer being hindered by the starforce 'layer', and yes starforce use some 'non standard' methods of hooking system api's, whats worse is that the last time i checked these hooks were global and not process based which can definately lead to some 'issues', regarding the whql issue, i think the whql is optional and you have to pay for it, and chances are the starforce people know it will fail on some tests, so paying for the whql is pointless from their view

[SuspiciousJedi]

Originally Posted by TippeX

nope, but if the game wants you to have the cd/dvd in the drive then you have little or no choice do you, if you want to play it legally

If I bought the game why it would be illegal to play it without the CD in the drive? Do you understand how the law works? Basic principle of law and justice says that everyone is innocent until (or unless) proven otherwise.

What this whole game copy protection scam and not just Starforce does is twisting the way the law and justice usually works into completely OPPOSITE scheme -- you are guilty unless you can prove you are innocent by having the CD in the drive. That is rediculous.

Originally Posted by TippeX

debugging those drivers would infringe the 'no reversing' poilicy in the eula wouldnt it, which would be illegal, however if you were a decent developer then you would know how to hide your debugger from the detections used and then debug it if you wanted to

You got me wrong again -- I do not want to debug their drivers, I want to be able to debug apps and drivers I wrote and I can't while Starforce is installed because it prevents any kind of debugging.

Originally Posted by TippeX

i am VERY framiliar with starforce and its drivers, NONE of those drivers have inet functionality and they can NOT send stuff out without accessing the network drivers, which should in turn be linked to the firewall (software), it just cant magically make a packet and send it, it has to interface to the ndis driver layer at the very least

Maybe they don't have it YET, maybe it has to interface so what?

In my view the main problem is that Starforce has unsupervised access to whole physical memory space because it is a kernel driver running in ring0. That means it could write into firewall memory space. That means it could also patch into other drivers. That means it could snoop and/or steal sensitive data such as credit-card numbers from your RAM and disclose it to the third party. It could open so much hated popup windows and waste your bandwidth on downloading targeted ads without you having any way of stopping it.

I am not saying it is doing it right now, just that it is possible and if we allow this we can expect to see those scenarios in the near future. There are already plans to display ads in games while you play, google for it.

What we have here is a double standard -- publishers do not trust their customers treating them as thieves until proven otherwise and at the same time they expect from customers to cast aside all doubts about publisher's "honest" intentions meaning that we should treat them as honest until someone proves otherwise. Shouldn't law be equally applied to everyone?

Originally Posted by TippeX

whats worse is that the last time i checked these hooks were global and not process based which can definately lead to some 'issues',

Hooks must be global so it can hide itself. My issue list sorted by order of importance is:

- privacy
- stability
- performance

Second and third options can be tuned over time but IMO they should not be our primary concern. People give up on privacy and control over their own stuff too easily when they should fight for all they are worth for.

Originally Posted by TippeX

regarding the whql issue, i think the whql is optional and you have to pay for it, and chances are the starforce people know it will fail on some tests, so paying for the whql is pointless from their view

WHQL is optional but products using non-certified drivers cannot get "Designed for Windows" logo. Consider this scenario:

You go out and buy video card. Being a product which has passed WHQL certification it rightfully carries "Designed for Windows" logo because it comes with signed drivers. In the package you also get a bundled game or a demo protected with Starforce.

Real problem here is that by including unsigned Starforce drivers in the bundle, video card OEM does not qualify for that "Designed for Windows" logo anymore. You have based your buying decisions upon logo existance so both the OEM and you are screwed.

[TippeX]

Originally Posted by SuspiciousJedi

If I bought the game why it would be illegal to play it without the CD in the drive? Do you understand how the law works? Basic principle of law and justice says that everyone is innocent until (or unless) proven otherwise.

>> unless you are american ;p and yep i understand how the law works, far too well

What this whole game copy protection scam and not just Starforce does is twisting the way the law and justice usually works into completely OPPOSITE scheme -- you are guilty unless you can prove you are innocent by having the CD in the drive. That is rediculous.

>> agreed, but short of online authentication the only 'sure' way they know you have the game is to 'force' you to have the cd/dvd rom in the drive

You got me wrong again -- I do not want to debug their drivers, I want to be able to debug apps and drivers I wrote and I can't while Starforce is installed because it prevents any kind of debugging.

>> hmm just tested that and you appear to be wrong i had no problems loading softice with the starforce drivers loaded, it only ****s up when you load a starforce game and the drivers then get activated

Maybe they don't have it YET, maybe it has to interface so what?

In my view the main problem is that Starforce has unsupervised access to whole physical memory space because it is a kernel driver running in ring0. That means it could write into firewall memory space. That means it could also patch into other drivers. That means it could snoop and/or steal sensitive data such as credit-card numbers from your RAM and disclose it to the third party. It could open so much hated popup windows and waste your bandwidth on downloading targeted ads without you having any way of stopping it.

I am not saying it is doing it right now, just that it is possible and if we allow this we can expect to see those scenarios in the near future. There are already plans to display ads in games while you play, google for it.

>> yep anythings possible agreed, but its probably best to wait for it to happen and then deal with it as opposed to trying a pre emtive move

What we have here is a double standard -- publishers do not trust their customers treating them as thieves until proven otherwise and at the same time they expect from customers to cast aside all doubts about publisher's "honest" intentions meaning that we should treat them as honest until someone proves otherwise. Shouldn't law be equally applied to everyone?

>> the law works for the industry, not the end user, that much can be seen from how many new laws have been introduced

Hooks must be global so it can hide itself. My issue list sorted by order of importance is:

- privacy
- stability
- performance

Second and third options can be tuned over time but IMO they should not be our primary concern. People give up on privacy and control over their own stuff too easily when they should fight for all they are worth for.



WHQL is optional but products using non-certified drivers cannot get "Designed for Windows" logo. Consider this scenario:

You go out and buy video card. Being a product which has passed WHQL certification it rightfully carries "Designed for Windows" logo because it comes with signed drivers. In the package you also get a bundled game or a demo protected with Starforce.

Real problem here is that by including unsigned Starforce drivers in the bundle, video card OEM does not qualify for that "Designed for Windows" logo anymore. You have based your buying decisions upon logo existance so both the OEM and you are screwed.

yep cavat emptor aint it

[SuspiciousJedi]

Originally Posted by TippeX

agreed, but short of online authentication the only 'sure' way they know you have the game is to 'force' you to have the cd/dvd rom in the drive

Well, the only sure way for the waiter in the restaurant to know that you won't run away after you have eaten your meal without paying for it is to trust you, and not to cuff you to the table leg and stand right by you whole time you are eating? Or thay do that in America?

Anyway, if I am legitimate owner then that cd-must-be-in-the-drive stuff annoys me because my proof of purchase is my bill and the money in their pockets and the one who steals doesn't have to prove anything (because of a no-cd crack) so it sorta turns out that it is better not to be honest?!?

One thing you are right, law works for them, not for end users. That should be stopped.

[Joe Forster/STA]

@chaosmaster: The Gutenberg (you're right, it's written with a single T, sorry!) example wasn't that stupid as it introduced a new media technology, with a much better level of "copyability". Similarly, digital media and digital content have been introduced exactly because they are easy to duplicate. From one point of view, copy protection of digital content is extremely silly as it works (read: tries to work ) against the greatest advantage of the media, the very reason for its existence!

[TippeX]

i dont know about them chaining you to a table when eating in america, im not american, and wont ever travel to america if i can help it, i was just citing america because of all its ****ed up laws, like the dmca, the net act (no electronic theft.. introduced by clinton), and how their laws favor the industry as opposed to the end user, sure they have the 'fairplay' policy, but that doesnt really amount to much when balanced against the other 'acts', even looking at the penalties involved for piracy in the usa, you can get more jail time for piracy than you would for rape or murder, that to me is just totally ****ed up, and with the other various bills that are intended to be passed you'll soon see emulation software/copying software being illegal, infact if im not mistaken such software is already illegal in germany.. if you have the money you can buy the politicians and the cops,and the industry for sure has that money..