REQ: Stolen trainers to be removed from GCW
 

(See the premises.)

maybe because Kelsat is a ripper hackjob that has no real talent other than using the copy/paste function? just a guess.

Now you have shown yourself to be an idiot.

Go sit in the corner and listen to daddy.

Kel is more than capable than caliber is, Kel has done options in the past that no-one else has done, so your ripper comment is stupid. Im sure caliber if he was here looking at this thread would say the same thing.

So go learn some manners, and also stop advertising CH in a stupid silly way.

is this the real DAB? are you crazy? i take offense old buddy, to your statement that Kelsat is more capable than I am. I would DEFINITELY NOT say the same thing and actually am surprised that you would write this. Have you not seen the progression of trainer releases. I have not only done OPTIONS that kelsat hasn't done, I HAVE DONE ENTIRE TRAINERS that NO-ONE has done.

As for kelsat's original trainer options, what he does is download our trainers, rip our options, and then add an option here or there because I HAVE DONE ALL THE PRELIM WORK FOR HIM. I don't always have time to add 10 options to a game right off the bat, since I am working on 10 TITLES AT ONCE plus PATCHES. If you notice I will go back for the bigger titles and add more options to them.

I have no real problems with other trainer makers and people making trainers. However Kelsat is a big exception because he takes our trainers and rips them, even the intentional coding mistakes we put in them. THis has been debated many times before, but it's the factual truth. They even admitted that they stole code within cheatengine.org forums (if the postings are still there).

If you think that Kelsat is a more capable trainer maker than myself after the hundreds and hundres of titles i have worked on, many of which were practically UNTRAINABLE (but I did it), then we have some big differences of opinion and I am somewhat confused and surprised to say the least...

it takes a little work to reverse someone else's option and then put out your trainer 5 days later with 'more' options, but don't put that sort of trainer making in the same league with people who make their own from scratch (and have it available within hours of game release).

best,
Cal

PS: thanks for the nice comments from members and if you are reading this KELSAT then enjoy your undeserved 15 mins of fame off of our back. once we figure out your account with us you can bet you won't be getting our work any more...without our trainers you are nothing... also note our subscriptions are up over 100 percent this year, LOL, even in this down economy! i hope you are enjoying all the zero dollars you are getting for your releases that you are trying to cop as your own. you enjoying the late night hours for free? have phun!

our CH burnout paradise trainer is free in like 3 days:

http://www.cheathappens.com/cheat_in...?titleID=14884

for TC ENDWAR if you have D2D version , it's free:

http://www.cheathappens.com/cheat_in...?titleID=14925

our Mirror's Edge trainers are all free:

http://www.cheathappens.com/cheat_in...?titleID=14499

notice also that we are supporting these titles through all the patches.

have a nice day-

best,
Cal

Hmmm Are you sure about this?

From what I seen, Kel managed to get a few options on TLR before you did Cal..

Either way, as you know im protective over trainer makers, and BigBoi who I think I know who it is now, who originally came in and did his thing like in Gamefaqs, so I protected.

Still if you have proof im all ears buddy.

Seems this is true, and Kelset and H4x0r are ripping injection/shifting routines from others trainers.

Empire perhaps it would be best if you removed them, like other sites have so far, It will dent GCW rep if you host them I think.

sorry to get so upset dab, my friend. only a few things set me off and this is just one of those topics. thanks for your response and apologies if i cut you the wrong way and went a little too far- you are one of the few unpartial people out there with no particular agenda, as well as a helpful poster on these forums....

best,
Cal

here's a message i am passing along to you from Chris at CH:


starts here:
-------------

Unfortunately this is the very reason why we have stopped sending our trainers to be hosted by GCW. We do not want to be associated with a site that knowingly supports and encourages the likes of Kelsat and h4x0r that rip trainer options from us and other groups. We feel that it’s extremely disrespectful to those people that are doing all of the hard work to bring this content to your visitors every day. This list includes, but is not limited to Veggy, Brewers, sheep, Cal, DAB and others. I’ve personally spoken to several of these people (they contacted me) and it’s a real shame that GCW is quickly losing the support of the truly talented trainer makers out there in favor of rippers like Kelsat.



I’ve attempted to speak with Empire about this issue and I know that others have as well, but it always seems to fall on deaf ears. It’s very unfortunate as we have sent many a visitor this way in the past whenever a no-cd fix is needed. I’ve also done personal favors for Empire without a second thought when he’s asked. I guess the content that people like Kelsat and h4x0r provide is more important than long-term relationships that have been established with the core trainer community and the reputation of the website.

ends here:
----------------

another example of the kelsat continuation:

wheelman trainer- we had our trainer out since tuesday. he has his trainer out late yesterday with the SAME options (except he added the useless stamina option so you could RUN forever in a driving game... lol). anyways calling the option 'vehicle nightmare' instead of 'carnage mode' like in our trainer doesn't make it any less of a ripoff of our trainer. also note that he hijacked the same INCORRECT code spot for the vehicle life as our ORIGINAL trainer, which we just updated today to take in account of the missions using a different method. what a loser-

just another example for empire so he can know why he's losing ours and others support when Kelsat gets bored, or gets a job or whatever and he has no one left to supply his site with content... as for us another record month of signups! thank you members for your support of our site.

look for (unsupported) copies of our last 4 or 5 trainers when he gets an illegal scene copy of the games. nice! lol.

best,
Cal

Why do I feel like a big bullseye lol :\

@Caliber: If you ask me, GCW aims - or should aim, if possible - for quality rather than quantity. (We've been running the forum with this more and more in mind for the last few years.) If you (or Chris from Cheathappens) describe the situation to me in a PM or an E-mail (preferred) and I understand them, I'll try to forward them to Empire in my own words. I assure you, he's not a malicious guy but 1) it is hard to make decisions on opinions only - yours is one, some other person's is also one - and 2) he has so damn few time that even I can hardly contact him for forum-related reasons.

If my word means anything, I have checked coding between trainers and even some non-challant/useless code is identical.

If you see from start of thread, I gave Kel the benefit of the doubt, then when told he has been ripping options I looked into it myself and it is true.

Even if say caliber and no-one else does a trainer for a game for 2 weeks, guarenteed 2 weeks neither will kelsat. And now he is building a false reputation of being a trainer maker when all he is doing is ripping coding via Olly.

I can point a finger at a couple of people who did tuts on this, but ultimately they are not the ones doing it.

Its like doing some hard work and when you go get paid for doing it, someone comes along and says they did it and gets your money.

For filtering, I would like to get the exact list of trainers that are stolen or the exact list of trainer authors whose trainers are all stolen.

i appreciate your responses and thoughts Joe, but that's impractical and probably impossible. We don't disassemble EVERY trainer from other trainer makers and test them all. It's only the ones that come out immediately after hours with the same exact options, then we look further and see if the code locations are the same, etc. then we might put in dummy code or have to repair and option and see that the other person's trainers have the same code as our old option. we are too busy and have too many things to contend with than to spend even more time trying to explain and prove this all over again. we are too busy to come in here and have a dossier of files, code chunks, and whatever 'evidence'. we are done with that. i would have thought that the word of ourselves, several other trainer makers (who really aren't friends of ours but still agree about kelsat), and the fact that they wrote that they were ripping our options in a posting on cheatengine.org themselves!

if you want to put kelsat's ripped work above ours then we can't participate here. i think that is what chris is trying to say up there-

also, it sounds like you are questioning the quality of our trainers? is this in comparison to kelsat's, specifically. in light of what we have been saying and what we wrote here, i am disappointed to hear that and this further erodes our relationship here.

at any rate, i don't want to turn this into something more than just a decision to cease ties due to intolerable decisions by the site owner, who has every right to make any decision he wants, just as we do for our own site and own purposes.

thanks again for at least acknowledging and replying but i don't see any progress in this and at this point i don't expect to.

best,
Cal

PS: I don't know what DAB means by having a target on him, but he has nothing to do with anything going on here, although i appreciate him looking at the trainers and etc. and making his own informed statements. I hope nobody blames or thinks of him any differently.

Hey chris can I get a big hammer to smack neo7 with, why does he pick on me all the time >.<

What he did the last time got me annoyed if you remember :P

Look at it from our point. I don't know about Empire, but although I'm a professional programmer and a hacker myself, I don't know much about today's copy protections or how to train today's games. (I've done that in the past, for DOS games, but not anymore. No time, no interest.) As such, we can only make decisions based on incoming reports. As haven't been using trainers for years - actually, haven't played a game for many months now; it's like sex after the nth X: you can't do it but you don't mind it much anymore either -, I don't even know the groups creating them. Now, how should I know which group is ripping off the work of which group? Scene groups are always sending fuck offs to each other in .nfo files, for real or not so real reasons...

However, as CheatHappens is a well-established maker of trainers, perhaps, a simplified way of reporting thieves should be the best compromise: if you can name us those people/groups who often rip off your own works, those could be banned from GCW. (That's not a promise, just a recommendation that I could forward to Empire, if you agree!)

However, it may well be possible that Empire will request something in change. Let me guess: e.g. a discount on CheatHappens membership for our forum members; special GCW releases of your trainers and/or trainers uploaded to GCW before other sites. Please, consider these, too. (Again, these are only my own ideas, without knowning anything about Empire's standpoint on this whole matter!)

Hell, no! I cannot question something that I haven't even seen... ;)

I am not affilated with both sides in anyway, but thats a bit too much.

Asking for discounts for users here for the promise of removing thieves' files, wow thats pretty dictatorist.

It was just an idea, not an ultimatum. I'm open to other suggestions, too.

We could play a stupid game where I'm the messenger, the CheatHappens people tell me something, I forward them to Empire then, after a week, forward back the answer, too, and this loop goes on endlessly. (And I'm pretty sure Empire won't want to deal with it personally.) To avoid this, I want to see problem closely, understand it and suggest possible solutions beforehands already.

Never said it was an ultimatum, just said the idea was pretty tough.

You want to remove Kelsat and h4x0r trainers because they use a stolen code? RIDICULES! GCW is a site full of cracks, most users use mu/rs/tpb and get cracks from this site. 100s of people work for months on a game and their work is stolen, but nobody cares here, this is a place for pirates.

Ignore Caliber and BigBoi, people won't stop using GCW because it is supporting pirates, lol.

Next thing you know people from EA will complain and you will consider removing cracks, lmao.

You have no idea what your talking about, and if you havent already read rule #1 of the forum and you will see this place is not for warez users.

You wouldnt understand because your mentality right now is get everything for free. Kelsat and h4x0r steal from other trainers, that is lowest of the low in terms of Trainer makers.

And if you again took the time to look before typing, you will notice none of EA's latest products have any cracks for here or at GCW, because the site does not support any cracks that bypass online authentication.

GCW does not support warez users, it supports people who wish to preserve their originals from over use. Hence why warez users get a swift kick in the balls here.

So again please do research a bit more before replying if you do ((your poor spelling looks familiar :P)) and before you say I dont know what im talking about, do research on me too.


EDIT: I notice your trying to reply to the thread, but seem to be taking forever to do so, could you please hurry up im in suspense here lol

You do realize that rule #1 is to cover admin in case he is sued. Admins actually love anyone who visits their page, pirate or a saint, they don't care, they get money from ads [more people = more ad views = more money]

All gamers I know use cracks from this page, they pirate games. I don't know why do you think that most people use cracks to save cd/dvd from scratching.

No doubt that most GCW users are pirates from bt, you can easily check this by going on any torrent page, almost every question about crack is answered by "go to gamecopyworl.com"

Picking on my "EA example" and spelling is a very poor form, lol, replace EA with Activision if it makes you feel any better, lol, English is not my native language, and yes I'm getting everything on my PC for free - games, soft, os.

Anyway, this discussion is pointless, you are not going to convince me of anything, no doubt that this goes both ways. I just wanted you all know that game pirates hate CH and love kelsat - another thing that you can see on any torrent page.

Ban [kick in the balls = ban?] my if you want, I don't have a static ip and know what a proxy is, so I'll continue to use cracks from this page.

1. Pirates are not warez users, this is what warez users like to call themselves, pirates are people who sell warez for profit.

2. Im sure there is people who misuse the site yes, but that is not the purpose of the site.

3. Im sure some are warez users who use lame bit torrent sites, because they dont have access to TS's, but people who are active mostly are not.

4. Wether it is EA or Activision et al, any cracks that will require online activation will never get hosted at GCW. And I said your bad spelling was familiar, I was not pointing fingers and laughing at you, but I can if you want :P

5. Nice way to say you steal games, yeah not so nice sounding is it when not using your "free" excuse.

6. Your original post was pointless, sure support the thief Kelsat if you want, its like looking in a mirror, as the old saying goes "thick as two thieves". So you would be in good company.

7. Question? What the hell is Endo Position anyways?

8. Hi Kelsat :P

Finger slipped :D

Ahh I see

for me, code theft is code theft, the person stealing the code obviously does not have the skills required to do the work themselves and are just trying to make a name for themselves (at the real authors expense).. such actions only last a short time before people detect the truth...

for me, if even one example can be given of code theft from the original author (showing code that was injected etc, and the 'fake' code), then i am more than happy to analyse it and ask that the trainers using stolen code be removed

i've seen people using ripped code from my own tools and it does piss me off immensely so i fully understand the situation...

as for gcw being a bunch of pirates.. thats simply wrong, the rules are there about warez users.. anyone using warez on the site is banned, and there's quite a few cases of this happening recently

Some short answers, for clarification...

EA does complain about cracks for their games being hosted on GCW but so what? Also, cracks for their recent games are available on GameFix only as they're against GCW's (current) rule: only cracks against copy protections based on physical media are hosted.

We cannot know the exact purpose of GCW, the site, only Empire can. I have my guesses but I'm not sure if anyone would be interested. (Rest assured, it's not for the money coming from advertizers, though...) But it is a fact that the (current) rules strive to drive warez users away. However effective it is is quite similar to how effective other anti-piracy measures are: not much. It would be possible to create a site that no warez user can access - and it would be completely unusable, too, or its access would be so complicated that people would go to another site. What would be the point then? Compromises, people, compromises! On the other hand, I'm not sure if warez users actually need GCW: the vast majority of cracks, that appear on the site, originally come from a warez release that they probably have access to, in some way, if they already managed to get a pirated copy of the game.

As for the "activation cracks will never get hosted on GCW" idea, noone can tell for sure. Again, only one person knows the true purpose of the site and only he can make final decisions about it. There may be some day when such cracks will be hosted; it may simply depend on the ratio of interest from visitors vs. the "disinterest" from publishers.

Giving away/getting cracks for free and putting your name onto the work of some other person is different. We have an expression against the latter in Hungarian: "betyárbecsület" = "honor of rascals" (mirror translation); it means that criminals avoid messing with each other's interests. This also kind of shows in the pride of cracer groups sending fuck offs to each other for not fully working cracks, improper propers etc.: if insiders don't follow the rules and this behavior proliferates then the whole scene will break apart. [...] To avoid misunderstandings: I'm not suggesting that crackers or trainer authors are criminals - although the creations of either or both may be illegal in some countries. I'm merely pointing out that even criminals are supposed to have some hard limits of their own that no colleague may ever step through.

By the way, my mentality is also to get everything for free, if possible. I'm a communist, remember, and proud of it. But if there's any person with a different mentality, please, raise your hand: you have violated the second law of thermodynamics already!

Just saying from a user's point of view here:
It really doesn't bother me in the least that Kelsat is ripping out code from Cheathappens trainers simply due to the fact that I'll never end up paying for a trainer, and I don't like waiting for a month or more for the free release.

GCW will keep my return visits as long as they provide NOCD cracks(so I don't have to sift through endless piles of discs) and trainers that are virus free and functional. I'd prefer to download a free trainer that's a bit buggy regardless of who made it, over trainers that are just demos that promote a paid site.

That said, I can understand where the CH folks are coming from. No one likes to have their work stolen/modified/whatever.

Still, if Kelsat and h4x0r aren't putting trojans/malware in their trainers, then I say leave them be for those of us who'd rather spend our money on games.

The "give us lots of stuff, no matter what" attitude is only a short-term solution. If GCW adhered to it, it would've been shut down ages ago, so we need more than that.

I can understand a quality over quantity approach, but when a trainer is of a relatively similar quality of another one that would require people to pay, I don't see why hosting the free one should be considered bad practise.

When the core is stolen from another program, it's pretty obvious that the two programs should be of similar quality, right? So, this fact makes no difference at all...

TippeX hates to see his code reused in another software without authorization; I don't do such "mainstream" software but mine was being used without authorization, too, and I wasn't happy about it either. I think you've been outvoted. ;)

Yeah, but there's instances where a CH trainer is only available as a promo version for literally months while other full featured releases are available within days of the games release, some of these apparently use some code from CH trainers, but are free and available long before CH releases the full free version of their trainers.

So in that instance, Kelsat's trainers are of higher quality for people that aren't paying members of CH.

However, if GCW supports people stealing from CheatHappens, CheatHappens won't support GCW and then GCW users will get less CheatHappens releases in the long run. That's what I was talking about as short-term vs. long-term solution.

the people who pay for the trainers are the REASON THERE ARE TRAINERS AT ALL. we wouldn't be doing trainers for ALL GAMES FOR PC THAT ARE RELEASED (or about 99.9% of them) if we weren't supported by paying members. For some titles we have actually made a trainer for the retail, d2d, steam, and 'other' version (4 versions for one game!) for the same title. Nobody is going to buy 3 copies of a game and make a trainer for each copy and support those copies through all the patches and do it for free. good luck with that. THUSLY, you can thank the paying members for your 'free' kelsat trainers because without the paying members, our website would not be around, we would not be making trainers, and kelsat would not have trainers to copy, and therefore your base of trainers to choose from would be far less than it is now.

with that said, we are NOT the only trainer makers, and arguably there are many GREAT and BETTER coders out there and we mean no disrespect to those people who make original and quality trainers for games and DONT RIP other's work to do so-

however, the kelsat trainers you are getting are directly ripped from CH trainers, which were originally created for CH members.

it's nice to know, though, that warez people are at least being honest...

best,
Cal

hi guys.. been a while since ive been motivated enough to comment around here.. but i thought i would put my 2 pence in since ive been around a little while and seen the best and worst that the scene has to offer..

The phrase that is most prominant in this thread comes from our hungarian friend.. while his translation maybe correct the ACTUAL phrase used in the english language is "HONOR AMONGST THEIVES" his translation of the meaning though is perfect..

When your a member of something with an overtone of illegal or immoral questionability then to become balanced and to judge others you need a level playing field.. in other words.. you accept that there is a dividing line between them (corporate money men) and us (hobbyists, reversers, trainer makers) etc.. without the divide you cannot possibly judge others to your own standard.. stealing from your work place.. and stealing from your mothers home are both stealing.. but in your head.. you can easily see which one carries the more serious implications..

not to mention making trainers has absolutely fuck all to do with stealing code.. it has everything to do with the understanding, passion and amazing creativity of a reverse engineer.. the end result of a CRACK has 1 purpose only.. the final product of a good trainer can result in the game being played in a different and altogether new way.. this is not STEALING its UNLOCKING!!!

MAKING TRAINERS = CREATIVITY
TAKING CODE FROM OTHERS TRAINERS = STEALING

doesnt get any simpler really.

(btw, my flipant use of the word CRACK there in no way demeans or belittles the work involved in making them, creating a crack takes a lot more work and in many instances a much DEEPER knowledge than it takes to make most trainers.)

(of course this idiology is taken to its extreme) most trainers are piles of shit that just enable people with no skill to complete a game they enjoy playing.. which is why its laughable when you see people like kelsat deliberatly stealing code from people who do NOT steal anything themselves..

so now we come to WHO should create and uphold these level playing fields? normally its down to the honor of the individual that partakes in the scene in question.. but when this cannot be relied upon, ie.. when you get fucking lamers like kelsat and others, who have no shame and even less skill then i beleive its down to sites like GCW to stand up and govern the flow of traffic they are resposible for.. in the old days groups were dropped form sites all the time because of lame conduct.. this was enough to ensure a good steady scene with quality releases.. today there is no real scene to speak of.. but what we do have is a circle of well known public sites that need to take on a few of the roles of yesteryear scenes so that we can be assured of a good quality stream of site content and disallowing lamers to pollute this.

hye dab.. ltns.. thought i better say hello :)

erm.. just so people know.. my opinion of CH is pretty well known by now.. but my moral compass as a trainer maker wont allow a good trainer maker to be dragged through the mud.. in the last 5 years i would say there has been only 2 people that have either surprised or impressed me with their work on trainers.. and beleive me.. (with me being such a fucking ego maniac its hard to impress me) but none the less.. caliber from CH is not only a fucking nice guy.. he has done work on trainers that i would have written off pretty much everyone for.. i know this, because ive done the work involved in making the same trainers.. and when ive looked at his work he displays a full knoweldge of whats going on.. id LOVE!! to accuse him of stealing my work.. but the raw truth is.. he has rlsed many trainers with extremely difficult options before me and many others in the scene.. so its clear that this guy is the real deal.. infact i would say hes probably the most underated trainer maker in the last 10 years.. if he rlsed his trainers for free and CH didnt exist.. u would all be giving this guy the respect he deserves.. so in future.. dont pay attention to the red tape of HOW his work is released.. just look AT!!! his work.. credit the guy for fuck sake.. hes earned it..


so.. thats about it.. fuck off if u think spelling mistakes is a sign of intellect or education.. i could easily spell check the lot and still have u think im a clever bastard.. truth is i dont care enuff about any of u to worry what u think.. and only the truly elite feel that way :) hehehe.. just kiddin.. cant be arsed to spell check too tired.. too old.. too.. everything really..

end of the day.. if sites like GCW want to be respected by the people that feed them.. they need to at least pay attention and listen to that SOURCE.. and fucking trainer maker doesnt need a theif to produce work.. a theif DOES need a trainer maker.. i know who i would rather be backing.

eze guys.. laters.

Well said Sheep and hey yourself :)

Like caliber has said, if he didnt do trainers for CH what trainers would Kelsat be doing.

Exactly.. Most people dont get this idea. And they have been using warez that much they think everything is free.

So Caliber spends hours and hours on coding for a trainer, why not get paid for it, you get paid for doing your real life work right? You Do? If so let me know your boss's name and company and address and your name, then ill let him know you will be doing work for free but ill be paid instead....

Didnt think you would like that idea, but that is basically what Kelsat does.

I agree with most of what everyone here is saying aside from this little analogy. Kelsat isn't making money from his stealing code. It would be more like me working for possibly slightly less money than before, while you take some of the credit for that work.

Anyway, yeah I know that without Caliber's/CH's work, those who leech off them wouldn't have all the preliminary work done for them already, and probably wouldn't end up making trainers at all. I guess it just rubs me the wrong way that quality trainers were released gratis for years before CH came around, but that's just a personal opinion, and I can't really deny the quality of a CH fully featured trainer, or the fact that CH covers a ton of games.

That was upto the trainer maker to release for free. It was not a rule that all trainers will be released for free.

For all great trainer makers its a challenge for some, finding options etc. If they choose to give their hours worth of work for free then good, if not then good. What kelsat does is neither a challenge or even that good, the analogy is actually correct.

For caliber it is, he is working to make money he is getting paid a wage, and someone else is taking the work he did and giving it out free, that in turn may ruin his position, his enthusiasm to stay in that position.

We don't know: Empire hasn't replied to my question yet. (Toldya he's extremely busy!)

[...] By the way, such code theft happens on larger scales, too. Many serious companies have been caught using GPL-licensed material in their own, proprietary, non-GPL-licensed work. Unfortunately for the original authors, judges don't know shit about GPL and serious companies have serious lawyers to defend them so the outcome of such cases is not obvious. I hope that, in contrast, our one-man judge and executor will come upon a satisfying sentence. ;)

Hmm.

If I am not mistaken, the CH content that appears on GCW are the 1 MB large "PROMO" trainers with +1 option? Hardly a loss if you ask me.
Still, /wave to Chris and the others at CH and wish you stuck around on Avault :)


That said, stealing code and promoting it as your own is lame and should obviously be shunned. Selling it is even worse.

Having said that, I dont see what the big deal is - and dont see why you cant opensource your trainers so more people can learn the fun of making trainers and see how the pros are doing it.

/cheers